You Can Learn People Skills Like You Learn PLCs with Alice Rystov and Cassy Gardner

Welcome And Meet The Guests

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Automation Ladies, the only podcast we know of where girls talk about industrial automation.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to another automation ladies episode. Today we have Alice Ristoff and Cassie Gardner from eTech Group. But just a quick update: like we just had OT Skatacon and it was really successful. And thank you to all our sponsors for that. And uh thank you to the volunteer team, especially. Um, so yeah, let's jump right into it. Um, Alice, I guess you can go first, but could you tell us about who you are and how you got to be uh managing controls people?

SPEAKER_04 0:36

Sure, no problem. Um, so I graduated with a degree in chemical engineering from UC Davis in 2015, and I just found my way into automation through a couple friends who were doing it, and I really enjoyed programming, so it made a lot of sense. And I've sort of stayed there ever since. I spent the first couple years of my life on the client side at Biom Run, and then I went to an integration company and I just never left. Um, I ended up managing people through a series of events. Um, I think the most important one was doing something very similar in an organization called ISPE, which is the International Society of Pharmaceutical Engineers. So I had my own committee and you know, led my own programs and those kind of things long before I went to formal leadership.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Great. Um, what about you, Cassie? Yeah, I have a very similar background uh to Alice. So I also have an engineering degree from UC Davis, but uh mine is in bioengineering. And uh my favorite class that I took my senior year of college was instrumentation and controls. And the professor had a really um, he had a good connection with industry, and he introduced me to a gentleman named Gary Powell, who at the time worked for an integrator called Banks Integration. And uh Gary had just started an internship program, and I was the second intern hired uh into the into banks, and at the time we were about 15 people. So that's how I got started and uh just really enjoyed the environment, the people, the challenge. Uh, in general, I'm very curious. So it uh ended up being a very good fit for my interests. Yeah, when it comes to managing people, I mean uh so my current role uh so I manage people for about 10 years or so. Um my current role, I don't have to manage people anymore. So, but I still love working with people. Um, I am director of corporate development now, so I support things like mergers and acquisitions, and I'm the head of partnerships. I own our relationships with Rockwall and Ignition, et cetera, some of those big brands out there. But uh managing people is something I always love. I love working with people, and I also enjoy getting to work with Alice occasionally here and there.

How Alice And Cassie Got Here

SPEAKER_03 2:48

So it's been good. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Um, Alice, um, what is what are some majors that you think, and I guess this is also for Cassie, but like what are some majors that are really good fit for controls engineers? I personally feel that chemical engineers are amazing at it because they understand the process, but um there's definitely some other contenders of majors uh that we should encourage to come over to the control side.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Um, so I do a lot of like outreach and mentorship for colleges in terms of getting exposure to what automation is, and I always encourage anybody from any major to you know think about a career in automation because to your point, there's so many that would be a great fit, right? So I've hired people from everything from you know mechanical engineering, electrical engineering. I even had someone from biology that I hired, and she was just great. So I really actually think automation can be open to almost any major and STEM.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, I'd I second Alice's opinion. I think uh because there is not necessarily a clear do this major, uh, the industry is used to having to coach and train and do on-the-job training for the types of skills that we need from our team members, our engineers. So if you have a general aptitude for computers, talking to people, problem solving, those are the things you need. And um, like my bioengineering degree also gave me the advantage of some of our life sciences clients. I got to understand the process a little bit better, just like you're the two of you with your chemical engineering degrees. But I think there's a lot to be said for people who just have um curiosity and problem-solving acumen.

Majors That Thrive In Controls

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Um, what are some advice for chemical engineers who want to be for chemical engineers that want to do controls um in terms of their career? What can they do to get into controls?

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so I'm really excited to where things have evolved because it was pretty different when I graduated. There wasn't necessarily the access there is right now. So I think my first piece of advice is find a mentor, right? People like myself and Cassie are always happy to do things like that. We really love encouraging young talent to come into the industry because we love it so much and we think other people will too. Um, when I was talking about kind of like the evolution of things that weren't there when I graduated, Ignition actually offers the core credential for free for students. And it's this really awesome program they run. And Ignition is becoming and now is such a valuable skill set in industry. I think it's a great way to get your foot in the door.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

That's a huge, good, really good piece of advice. Ignition. I remember when Ignition was coming out, uh, that's how they got so popular, is they were giving free training. Without that, uh, I don't think they would have become as huge as they are, but ignition is everywhere now. And it is a really important skill to be learning right now, if you're a controls engineer. Um, what about you, Cassie? Do you have any advice for controls engineers?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

I think Alice's advice is great. Um, I would say, like, if you want to become, if you want to get into the industry or any industry, um, a good strategy is uh informational interviews. I love to recommend those. That's my number one piece of advice. Um, for anyone who doesn't know, an informational interview is where you find a professional working in the field that you're interested in. You find them on LinkedIn or through a family member or who cares. You find them and you reach out to them and say, Hey, I am really curious about your job. Would you sit down with me for 30 minutes or an hour and I could ask you some questions about what you like about your career, how you got into it, et cetera? And that turns into a conversation where the person, the career seeker, learns about the industry, learns about the pros and cons, and they make hopefully a human connection in that space that actually can refer them on to people who may be hiring, or they might have more concrete advice to help you take the next step towards finding that job. So that's my number one go-to. If you are a job seeker, um, I think that's such a valuable tool in the toolbox. It's just you, but you do have to be comfortable talking to strangers, which can, you know, that takes some practice.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

But there's strangers out there that are willing to teach.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Absolutely, for free. For free. Yes, totally. Um, people love to talk about themselves. Hence, well, on this question, that's true. It's so true. So why not give

Mentors Ignition And Informational Interviews

SPEAKER_03 7:18

them the opportunity and uh see where it takes you?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Okay. Um, this question is for Alice. Um, can you talk about what ISPE is?

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Yeah, of course. So ISPE is like a greater organization. It stands for the International Society of Pharmaceutical Engineers. As like a greater organization, what they do is they take guidelines from the FDA and they sort of put them into practical guidelines, right? So they're the ones who publish the GAMP 5, you know, the new automation guidelines for um AI that are coming out. So they're the ones who kind of take, you know, the advice and guidance of the FDI FDA issues and you know create guides as to how to actually implement that in practice. ISPE also has a more social component to it for folks who are in the pharma industry. And it's cool because you know, I think a lot of clubs, you know, like AICHE or you know, like the civil engineering club or electrical engineering, it's very specific to the major and kind of like the like the field of study where ISPE, I mean, I know people from you know from construction, from data science, from you know, lab folks, um, and they can all participate in ISPE. Um, it's a really great organization. I think I think it's a great net benefit um to folks, you know, wanting to learn about the industry as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Great, thank you. What about uh can you explain to people who don't know what GMP is?

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Cassie, do you want to take this one?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Sure, why not?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah. And um, basically, there is a philosophy for if you want to make a product, if you want to manufacture a product, you want to do it well. And there's some lessons learned other people have been through. And by applying and learning about GAMP, GMP good good processes, you can avoid the mistakes that other people have made. But it there's also a regulatory compliance piece. So if you think about the life sciences and pharmaceutical industry, um, they are often looking towards like a federal code of regulations to make sure they're in compliance. And um, practices like GAMP and GMP can help you stay in compliance with those like federal code of regulation rules. So it's it's all about um doing things well in the right way, keep your patients safe, your customers safe, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And you can uh find it in uh life sciences and food and beverage, right? Absolutely, yes, totally. Yeah, and food and beverage, and both of them have uh different uh gowning uh but which is unique to the industry uh to automation, and you know, not everyone loves putting on the booties and the beard nets and the hairnets. Come on, career seekers need to wear the bunny suits.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

That is the best part of the job.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Selfie wearing the strange suit is customary before you go in.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Alice, how did you feel? You worked for a biotech company. Did you like gowning in to the clean rooms?

SPEAKER_04 10:15

It was just a necessary evil, you know. You just got used to it like anything else at some point. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Well, I was just gonna ask if either one of you ever had to double up on the gowns, like had to wear more than one layer of protective stuff.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

There's ones, I don't think I've ever been to a manufacturing facility with like this level of of like guidance needed or this like counting needed, but it was apparently so much that it was like someone had like an air tube attached, like to the bunny suit, so like a spacesuit basically, um, where they had to go and just kind of like spacewalk into the you know into the bioreactor room.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Well, I think it's fun. There's some novelty there, but yeah, if you have to do it every day, I think it gets old. But for for me, you know, on the consulting side, uh, Alice worked at the biotech company and also as a consultant. So she has both experiences. She has the probably the experience of having to do it on a regular basis. But for me, doing it as an engineer, as a consultant on an occasional basis, it was like it was like a little fun, just a little. Yeah. All right, I'm gonna do this for two weeks, and you know, we'll get a laugh each time, and then I get to go back to my normal life and work from home the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

Yeah, I mean the the funny thing that always happened, I'm sure you ran into this, Cassie. It's like you always forget your tools, like the one day you need them. You have to like go back out, and you're like, oh, that is the worst part of my life, right?

ISPE GMP And Cleanroom Life

SPEAKER_01 11:29

So you guys are managers. Let's talk about active listening versus presuming. Go for it, Alice.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Active listening versus presuming. So I think we we as people, we tend to imprint our own thoughts and ideas onto people and you know, our own goals for them based on like our own experiences. And um with that, right? Uh I think it's much easier. I think it's one of those things when you go into management, you just kind of have to learn that not everyone wants things done the same way that you do. So, for example, right, not everybody wants the same one-on-one cadence. And you know what? Like, I think at first you really want like that structure, but then I think you started a kind of at least like for me, like I've started to realize that you know it's okay that there's variety between like what people want and you know what their goals are, right? So some of my folks I meet with one-on-one, you know, every week. Some of them I meet every like three weeks. So you have like a threshold of like when I have to meet with them. Um, but kind of taking us back to active listening. I think being a good leader, a good manager is so dependent on really listening to what people are telling you and incorporating that feedback into your own actions.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

I'll second that. If I can just add on, um that so totally agree with what Alice highlighted. And I there's a couple of philosophies that I think about when to be a good listener, there's a few things you need to do. You need to validate what people are saying. So if you hear someone share a feeling or a concern before you move on, you need to verbally acknowledge receipt of that information. So closed loop communication, right? Like, thanks for sharing that this was really frustrating for you, or thanks for sharing that you actually don't want to be a manager and that's not the right career goal for you. So acknowledge and then ask clarifying questions. I am really curious, what is it you're actually interested in? What do you find yourself excited by as you're you know working throughout the day? Are you most engaged when you're heads down in the middle of a PLC code? Do you like working on the spreadsheets? Do you love pivot tables? Like, what do you love? Uh, or do you like talking to people and see what see what people tell you? But the core philosophies to me of being a good listener really are around um validating what you've heard, asking clarifying questions, and naming specific feelings whenever, whenever you hear them, like, oh, that sounds frustrating, that sounds exciting, that sounds difficult. You know, trying to really um connect with folks directly and what they're feeling is important.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

If people want to become managers,

Listening Leading And Handling Conflict

SPEAKER_01 14:07

what advice do you have? Uh, especially engineers, because they're, you know, notoriously not not feeling. I'm not gonna say they're not good at it, but like they don't want to. Um, they're really good at doing what they're good at doing, and they don't want to manage other people because there's just too much stress to that, honestly. Um, I've done it. Um, I think it's honestly harder than the engineering itself is to the management of engineers. Can you talk about uh what that journey's been like to learn about people and how to manage them and the psychology behind that?

SPEAKER_04 14:44

I mean, I think I think it's like a two-part answer, right? Um, it really does suck a lot of times that when people look, like when people look at their career advancement, they kind of see management as like the only track that they can go to, right, to get either the pay that they want, you know, or you know, just kind of continue to advance in their career. Um, I think industry as a whole, I've seen it get better about maintaining people in an SME role if that's what they want to be, right? Where you get to like a principal engineer. I've seen a lot of directors who are still really technical and who don't necessarily do management. So, you know, for anyone who's listening who feels like they have to go into management, even if it's something they don't want to do, that's really not the case anymore. Maybe it used to be, but I think it's it's it's gotten to a place where it's at least much better. So if you don't want to, you don't have to. Um, at the same time, a lot of these folks who maybe are not uh maybe as naturally oriented towards being, you know, great managers, right? Or maybe more people focused. I've seen a lot of those people become some of the best managers that I've ever worked with because they're very tactical. So they know what their gaps are and they know how to use strategy and data and calendar events and check-ins and one notes to make themselves great managers, right? To say the right things at those check-in, to make sure they're really assessing where their people are at, to, you know, driving communication with other groups to make sure they're getting those opportunities for those people. So if you don't have that skill set, it's okay. It's also something you can learn.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah, I think it's uh that's good. Um there's a couple things that you touched on that are really good there, Alice, which is like what is the role of a manager? What is a good manager doing, right? And they are, in my opinion, I'm curious what you all think, but in my opinion, a good manager is handling the care and feeding of the people reporting to them. And that looks that incorporates a couple of different things. It incorporates the um finding them opportunities, helping them reach their aspirations, coaching, giving feedback, and also helping that team get the work done that the company needs to succeed. So you have to balance all of these things. And it's it's not an easy thing to do, Alicia. You touched on the psychology. There's a lot that goes into individual reasons for motivation and engagement. And um, I think some good first steps, if you are interested in becoming a manager, would be uh classes on leadership. Leadership philosophies and things uh help you understand what it takes to get the important work done and to talk to people and connect with them and bring them along to that process. So uh I think that's where I really started um managing people, is I I took a class through the UC Davis Extension that was a leadership class. And so many of the philosophies were really interesting. I was like, wow, this is so cool to learn what motivates people and how to work with them. I feel like it's a good place to start because there's there is so much to cover to be a good manager. But it also, if you just in your heart, in your you look at your core values, you know you want to help people. I think you you have what it takes to be a good manager a lot of the time. That's that's where it starts.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Yeah, I totally agree. Just to like add on to that, right? There, when I was talking about like there's lots of ways to get practical experience in managing people, one of the easiest things to do is become someone's mentor, right? A lot of folks, like when they're at the place in their career where they start thinking about do I want to be a manager? They look and say, Well, how do I get practical experience? I thought that you're probably, you know, pretty strong technical SME. So why not find a young engineer or you know, somebody who's interested in learning, you know, it's a platform that you're really familiar with and mentoring them, right? It's a really great hands-on way to you know interact with somebody sort of in a similar way that you would as their manager.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

It's a good shout-out. Yeah, I think it's uh there's a lot of people who need it too, like they're hungry for it. Yeah, that's a good good idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Um, thank you for that. Um, what is your approach to conflict?

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Be direct. Yep. Yeah. Uh I think I think, and Cassie, I'm sure you think this too. You know, it's an understandable tendency to like avoid things that are difficult. I think we as people just find conflict to be difficult. But the sooner you address it, the sooner you give that feedback, the sooner both of you can resolve whatever that situation is.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah. But just take it. Just do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Do it. Just do it.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Just do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Just find a cross. Like right now in my job, I'm working with more Gen Z, I think, than I ever have in my past. And I'm curious uh if you guys have seen like, because we all kind of generationally do things different or just have different wants and needs for being at work. Like you guys find that that struggle between managing boomers, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z all kind of in the same house.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

I think what I've seen, and Cassie, I'm really curious your answer is because they work with like a bigger threshold of people that I do. So I mentioned like I mentor like really heavily. So I mentor probably like five to ten young engineers at the same time, not necessarily e-tech, but sort of through all my different, you know, outreach things that I do. Um, and then I do have some people who are older who report to me. And as long as you're persistently kind is like the way that I put it. And as long as people feel like you really care about them and you have their best interests at hearts, yes, like how you manage them is probably different, right? Um, but I think as long as you perpetuate that sense of kindness and that you care about them, it's it's been pretty, it's been pretty uniform in my experience.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, I I think there's a lot to be said for the like starting with the human side, then the kindness first. I think that's a great framing, Alice. I if I think about um conflict and how I handle conflict and then how I manage folks like who come from different backgrounds, different cultures, different generations. Um, it starts with the again, the active listening, just just starting with where are you? If I'm if I know there is a tense topic I need to talk about, I start by opening the door with what is going on for that person so I can meet them where they are and try and bring them along to where I think we need to be. And I think the the same thing applies regardless of you know what generation you're managing or what have you. I do a lot of managing up. You know, I'm like um managing folks who I'm trying to get results out of people who are much older than me or um generationally, or even sometimes from an authority perspective, or higher than meaning in an organization. And so there's like a softer uh approach you have to take, which maybe applies to some different generations also. But first find out where they are and try and adapt.

Closing The Academia Industry Gap

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Uh switching gears, um, when I went to school, so I'm a 2010 chemical engineering graduate, and I did process engineering for a three years before I went into controls. Um, but I feel like when I started as a chemical engineer, that I was just like not prepared to do chemical engineering. Um, and I think that's because there is a gap between academia and industry. Oh, yeah. Um, can you please talk about bridging that gap?

SPEAKER_04 21:53

So for me, I it's so funny you bring this up. I went through the exact same thing. And I was like, I learned fluid mechanics in school. I solved for these equations. I still remember what the Reynolds number is. I don't know why I can't forget it in front. And someone is asking me to troubleshoot a VFD. What do these two things have in common? And the answer is nothing. So the way that I personally try to bridge that gap is I probably go to five or six different colleges at various times through the year. I give talks about what automation is, and I do it at a very relatable level of like, you know, this is your thermostat kind of thing. And I always say, if you ever have any questions, feel free to reach out to me. I've done things like running admission workshops. So I think, I think kind of like what Cassie mentioned earlier, right, is that there's no there's no real feeder major for automation. We can pull from almost anything. So the best way to bridge that gap, I mean, particularly into automation, is probably through experience and mentorship.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

And as a company, I'll just add, you know, for us, we expect to train people. But when folks are coming out of college as a new grad, um, we are not expecting a new grad to know how to get online with a PLC and how to make a change. That is all we have formal training programs, we have resources to help bring those folks to where, you know, teach them the skills we need them to have to be effective. And if you are the engineer who is going through that transition, I think the important thing for you to think about is um keeping an open mind, trying to take ownership of the problems that are in front of you and using the resources available to you wisely, but also using them, right? So you can ask for help, but do try and do the thing yourself before you ask and like give it a good college try. We um hired a lot of grads, new grads from UC Davis and um Bill Mueller, who was my mentor for many years, he had a he started a term called Davis Dunn, where new grads would show up and they would be like, Oh, I it's done. I did it, I did the thing. And then you go and look and they did like you know 60% of it, a bunch of stuff they left blank, or they did incorrectly, and they didn't ask for help, or they didn't take ownership and say, I need this piece. So don't do don't be Davis Dunn.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Yeah. No, that's that is like such a great point to make, or it's like, Cassie's so right. Like, we don't look like if you're coming in as like an entry-level engineer, it's okay. We understand that, you know, we're not gonna put you as a sole contributor on a project and expect the world from you. Um, if if we're targeting people who are new to industry, what I always try to tell them is be resourceful and be communicative. So, what does that mean? I am your manager, I give you an assignment, you have no idea what you're doing. That is totally okay. Go lurk around SharePoint, go lurk around these other resources we've given you. We have all this information the company dragged. Go read a couple documents, then draft an email. Hey, Alice, I wasn't really sure how to do XYZ. This is why I started, this is my proposed path forward. Does this look okay? And then set up a meeting with me, right? Be resourceful, be communicative. We don't want you to struggle, but we aren't really gonna know if you're struggling if you don't communicate.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Break it really good too, because I think a lot of us are afraid to break it. And like on my end, if I told you as an intern to go touch the motor and you blow up the motor, um, I'll go tell the manager I told an intern to touch the motor. And there's always like a backup, there's a backup motor, there's a backup plan for you breaking the thing, don't worry.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

But I can I I remember that feeling too, and I remember how frightening it was, right? So I I think in times two, we could do a lot of a little bit better about acknowledging that hey, if you have five minutes to talk, like just ping me. And it was like a younger engineer, and they're like, oh my god, a gig fired. Like when I tried to tell you that you did a great job. So lesson learned, don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah, it's fair. I I do think there's a lot to be said for the break it advice. Um, this is not a new grad story, but my mom is older and um she struggles with technology. And my I am constantly having to be like, I know you can, I'm like, we we have a coaching relationship when it comes to her phone, and I'm like, come on, mom, you can do it. I promise you're not gonna break it. And if you do, I promise I will fix it. Like, go for it. And then that's like that's what she needs, and she does it, she does great. So sometimes that little push, there there is a tricky thing though, because it there's the comfort zone, and then there's like the being stretched, the challenge zone, and then there's the panic zone, right? So as a mentor and a leader, you have to figure out how to get people into the challenge zone and not into the panic zone. Because I have made the I have done that also where I have made engineers cry and I was like, that was not the plan. I'm really sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

So but it happens. It does.

Mistakes Commissioning And Troubleshooting

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Um, have you guys ever made a technical mistake and how did you handle that? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

I think like one of the first, I don't remember like what year it was that I was in, but I like I took down half the network. That's because I created a network loop because I like plugged the Ethernet cable into two switches at the same time. To be fair, someone told me the other one wasn't working, so it shouldn't have done that. And and on top of that, right, it notifies everybody when you do that. Like all of automation is like, whoa, no, the network's down. So yeah, just dealt with it. I had a kappa, I created, you know, like a report on it, and we all moved on.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yes, mistakes happen. I think that's yeah, that's fair. I'm I'm trying to think of a good um, if I have a good story. In general, I like I can't think of a good one right at this moment, but in general, mistakes are totally okay. They happen all the time. It is just important to disclose when you make one and to apologize and like take corrective action. Take ownership and say, here's what I can do to help fix it if you want me to continue.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I think that's the biggest thing is taking ownership. So I uh I blew up a VFD and the story of that was that it was it was not my so I was working for a roaster company and it wasn't my project. And the guy whose project it was, uh the the controls engineers whose project it was wasn't there. And the mechanical engineers wanted to run a fan. So they wanted me to power up this control panel with, and I didn't, I hadn't seen this particular roaster ever done in anything other than 480. So I went and got 480 and I hooked it up, and it was a 230 panel. And I got the purple smoke, and um, that was terrifying. And actually, as I spent the next day, actually the rest of that day and the next day looking for all the parts that I broke, because I broke um the PLC power supply fuse, the little the little fuse in there was broken, uh, just it disappeared. Um, the CC fuses on the secondary or maybe the primary of the the control transformers were busted, CC fuses, um, and then the VFD itself. And so the next day um I was I was sitting there trying to fix it and um wiring the new VFD and the CEO came over and was just like, oh, I heard you blew this up. And I just was like, I was I was so embarrassed. Yeah. Um, and I learned a real lesson about reading the nameplate. And uh yeah, we we moved on. Um they did like the don't do that. I I told my boss at the time, don't, and he was just like, oh my God, go fix it immediately. And uh yeah, so take ownership of your mistakes. Um another time I actually bought um intrinsically safe uh barriers that were not for uh that were not loop powered. So and I needed then my instruments were loop powered. And so they just didn't work when I went to go read um readings. I wasn't getting my four to 20 the way I was expecting it to. And yeah, I had to, that was you know, $7,000 of like rework. You remember that work, huh? Yeah. Money is expensive. Stuff that you just like end up causing just like makes you feel so bad. But just remember that like, you know, um to to come forward and just tell tell whoever you need to tell immediately. Yes. Um you're hiding it is not to solve anything. So so that's um and then and then just own it. Own own your mistake. Um, and don't try to hide anything. And that's you know my advice that I give for breaking stuff. Um and don't feel that bad. Um, obviously try not to break anything, but people we break things.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Um I should point out now, Greg, like as my mentor, was so good about that. We had a shelf of stuff that if we broke it, we would sign our name on it and leave it on the shelf as like evidence to the next person. Like, yes, this is how it can break. And if you break it like this, go talk to Courtney. That's really great.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

I love that. I think there's something to be said about like creating a culture too as a manager and as a leader. You need to create the culture where people feel safe to tell you when they make a mistake, right? Because that's the reason that people will try and hide things, is they don't feel like they don't know what will happen and they don't trust that it will be okay. And so as a manager and a leader, you need to like talk about mistakes openly that you make and that the company makes or whatever, you know, and just say, like, this is a safe space for us to learn together and we're not expecting perfection.

unknown 31:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

What do you guys tell people to prepare them for commission their first commissioning jobs? To prepare them.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Um I mean and you're gonna be sitting on a bucket.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

Yeah. Yes. Um, so we never like we as a company, and I think just we never send like baby or new engineers like in by themselves for the most part, right? You're usually someone more experienced there. Um, I think what I what I have advised people to do uh from like a more technical standpoint is like write out what you're going to do so you feel prepared. I think a lot of engineers in general, like they don't like write to do things, and maybe this is because I've spent my whole career in GMP, I literally write everything down. Um, but if if I found they they seem to be a lot less anxious if they go through and they kind of write themselves a step-by-step guide, like, you know, like let's say they're doing move tracks, right? What do I need to bring? I need a voltmeter, I need this, this, and this, I need these tools, you know, I need this safety equipment. Okay, great. So, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna open the panel, you know, I'm gonna review the electrical track to make sure I'm in the right place. Um, so so what I usually tell folks is like to be prepared, you know, try to write yourself a little guide. That's really good advice. Do they ever do it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, and hopefully you get sent on a on a commissioning job with someone who knows what they're doing and you can write down everything you saw them do. So and make yourself your own, you know. If the if the if the the documentation isn't as good as it could have been, um if you're I'm sure at eTech group, it's very well documented exactly how you're gonna do all your commissioning. Uh so learn from the documentation. But if it's not there, learn from the guy that's just kind of winging it. Yeah, exactly. Or girl. Yeah, and ask him what they're doing, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Senior people love to explain all the cool technical state stuff they know. That's like almost universal from what I found out. Oh, yeah, I'm doing this, this project I did this, and then I learned from this because I blew this thing up over here. So cool.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah, and um, it is okay to not know what you are looking at also and to ask questions like, what's that thing? You know, like a new grad, like your first commissioning, you should be trying to soak up as much information as you can and asking basic anatomy questions of just the things you're looking at and how things work together. Um, you want to work that in as much as you can. You do also have a job to do, so you're not necessarily there to get trained. So you got to balance that. But I I do definitely encourage question asking. And if you're doing some mundane part of the startup or whatever where you can work in questions, do it.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

Yeah, very well said, Kathy.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Um, can you guys tell me the story of the first PLC that you had to deal with?

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Do you remember the first PLC? I think the first PLC I touched was a micrologics. We had a um a training kit at the banks in the banks integration era, and we had to program uh in ladder logic a stoplight routine. So a trap four-way traffic light. And uh there was a little micrologics, and you had to, you know, you had push buttons and be like, I'm a pedestrian trying to cross, or you know, it was all set up like that. And um, I have to be honest, I did not do a great job, but they still hired me. So it worked out, I guess. Trainable, trainable, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Yeah, yeah. I think mine was on like an actual project when I was a biomarine. I think it was a CIP skid, and I was producing, I sorry, I was programming, produce, consume communication with like five other pieces of equipment. I don't think I'd have to do it. Wow. Yeah, it was fun. Uh is that what it was?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

There might have been something before it, but that's the one that was at Alan Bradley. Yeah, yeah. My all my experiences is at Alan Bradley, and like my first one was also a micrologics, and it was in a food RD place, and I think it was making coffee. Nice, um, and it was just not working, so I went online with it and I was just very nervous. Um, and uh yeah, I ended up figuring out what it was. It was physical, it's never in the PLC, they always say that. It's always in the network. The PLC doesn't change, yeah. Um the equipment like you know, dies, and there maybe isn't an alarm that what like was supposed to be documented and wasn't didn't show up. Right, and so people don't know what to do when certain things happen. But um yeah, but it's always automation's fault, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

You couldn't tell automation's fun. You're like, you can't do anything. It worked until you changed the PLC code. I know. Like I didn't even open it.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

I'm gonna steal another Bill Mueller story mentor from years ago. He um liked to tell this story also at a coffee uh distribution center, packaged coffee. Uh they were trying they were troubleshooting, they I forget exactly the story, but um it was a conveyance application and they were troubleshooting, like trying to get it to work, and they could not figure out what was happening. It was the middle of commissioning startup, and eventually they learned that like across the building somewhere, an operator had hit one of the photo eyes with a forklift. And so like that was the whole root cause of the the issue. Things were just shifted. So yeah, it's not, it's it's not always our fault. You know, how did you guys figure that out? I wasn't there, it wasn't my project. I'm totally stealing Bill's story, but that one always stuck with me in terms of uh just things to watch out for. Oh, I feel like the other piece of advice I like to share for new grads or folks coming into the industry, when you're troubleshooting a problem, you have to teach yourself like systematic thinking. So you got this engineering degree, and um it's taught you how to solve problems and it, but it's also taught you about how to systematically think. So, can you look at each situation in front of you and each problem and try and think of what is the most basic place to start that this could be you know connected to and start there and then work your way up from a troubleshooting perspective to the higher levels of complexity? Is the laptop plugged in? Yes or no? Right. So just start with the basics and then basics.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Is the e stop untwisted? Very good. Very good. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

And also like document the things that you're doing to troubleshoot, right? So then when you have to figure out if you've done something already, because it can cause other things, right? Let's say you toggle something on enough, like you don't know if that caused an effect downstream. So always kind of write down what you're doing. That's a good thing that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

We actually have a Slack channel, multiple Slack channels, uh, where I work. If you've you know, if you blew it up or you didn't blow it up, but you found it blown up, you gotta put it in the Slack channel so that later somebody else can search that same exact problem and see if somebody already tried this before.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Yeah, love that. The documentation has many uses and it can be shared. Very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

So, do you guys ever come across projects where you don't have a control narrative?

SPEAKER_04 38:40

I think the majority of our projects are like that, to be honest. I mean, any new facility, your commissioning or you're bringing up, they're sort of doing the process development in parallel to you doing like the automation development.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Yeah, I would say most of our projects. Um, I uh so I would say through the years, I have seen varying levels of sophistication from different clients. And um, clients have like they reach certain points of maturity where they know what they need to do and what prepared to run a good project. And other times they don't know and they need you to help them along. So uh it dep it depends. You got to meet the client where they're at. And sometimes we are working with the client who is making, you know, they're they're building their first manufacturing facility. So they have no, they have no idea what their requirements even are or what a control narrative is, maybe sometimes, depending on they might not even have an automation engineer on this, the owner's side on the staff. So um, we do sometimes come into projects early stage like that, where we're helping guide clients through that process. And we typically run like a feed study, but um most of the time now, by the time we're at the commissioning phase or we're getting to site, there's a well-established control narrative or a functional design spec and a software design spec, and we're we're following the GAMP lifecycle, but not always yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

I find actually like the biggest gap, whether it's like folks from RD or automation folks, is usually like what their IT needs are when it comes to like deploying any kind of automation project, right? So if you're deploying, I don't know, like a new admission system on site, right? You're probably pretty unfamiliar what kind of server setup you need or kind of networking needs to be part of that setup, right? You know, just even the basics of you know how much storage does this VM need. So that's actually where I found the biggest gap to be

Project Planning Gantt Charts Scope Creep

SPEAKER_04 40:19

these days.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Do you recommend uh that engineers learn Gantt charts to make Gantt charts?

SPEAKER_03 40:26

So I'm gonna can I jump in on this one? I am a P a project manager, I'm a PM like through and through. It's in my frigging heart. And I think people who understand how to put things in a Gantt chart, like having it's so powerful. It is so powerful when you do it right, okay? So I being able to see the predecessors and dependence of different tasks and see how things play together when you're working on something really big and really complex. There is so much value in that. And I will tell you a funny story. My sister for Thanksgiving, probably maybe seven years ago now, something six or seven years ago, she had we bought her this new Thai cookbook, and she was all excited to make a Thai Thanksgiving spread. And she picked out, I think, 17 recipes or something. Oh no. So project manager Cassie enters the scene, and I'm like, we are so resource constrained, your island is tiny. How are we gonna get all of this done and delivered on time for everybody to eat Thanksgiving dinner at 4 p.m.? And so guess what I made? The week before Thanksgiving, I made a freaking Microsoft project schedule with attendance and we looked at the critical path and we knew which things we had to do the two days ahead of time, and it like flawless, flawless execution.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

That is amazing. That is a huge uh yeah, I'm not good at I'm not good at Gantt charts.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

I feel like there are all I've said this so many times, but I feel like every Gantt chart I have ever made is a lie. And then I'm just updating the lie every week. And if I'm lucky, like I have a Gantt chart at the end that's all slip.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Well, that's very how do you make less of a lie?

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Do you just use the slip from last time and kind of recalibrate and make it real? Because the since I've come to a piece of advice was take the worst time you've ever had and the best time you've ever had on a task, and then pick something in the middle, and you'll be like, you know, like three quarters of the way correct or something. But like I've never heard of how to make a Gantt chart, just not a big fat lie.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. My advice here is um, so I'll start with a quote. I forget some statistician, I think, said this. All models are wrong, but some are useful, right? So um, you are looking to get utility out of this Gantt chart, right? Uh, you don't have to have it down to the like super perfect precision level, but you got to get it good enough so that it can have a meaningful conversation with your client or with your team about what you're shooting for. So um it I would think it's more of an art than a science, but trying to balance the number of tasks you have and the level of detail to get that right so that is actionable and meaningful for the whole team to communicate using, but not getting so detailed that every single piece is a lie. And you're like, why do I have to manage this task that has a one-day duration? Like, this is stupid. You know, so just try and shoot for the the right level of detail to make it a useful conversation piece so that you can then forecast looking ahead to the completion of the project. Like, we all want to eat on time, okay? We're hungry.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Amen. What about um scope creep? How do you manage scope creep?

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Uh I mean, I my my approach is the same thing as conflict resolution, right? It's just communication, address it with the team. address it with the client, right? Usually it's not it's not something intentional. Um like you know what I think about it is that you know engineers want to work on cool stuff and they get excited about solving problems, right? Sometimes they feel like hey like this wasn't really part for scope right or just you know saying hey maybe we can reallocate these hours. So I always I always approach things with um I assume people always have the best intentions rather than thinking that they're trying to you know do something like bad or you know like like do something intentionally nefarious.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Um and usually that fixes it I think it's very powerful very very power powerful um but there is a little bit of an art to it too though I think it depends like the scope could come in you you touched on two sources. There's like the clients who can be gently asking for more and then there's the engineers who can be gold plating because they're like this is fun. Right? So dashboard and you're like oh you we have dark mode on this now?

SPEAKER_04 44:56

Nobody else talking about in an LED lit room 247. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Yes so I think you manage the two differently and um I think you know really communicating expectations with the team and communicating the budget proactively and often with the team and with the client like that to me it's like early and often communication like hey you know things are I'm looking at the forecast I'm looking at what's happening. I'm worried we're gonna be looking at a change order if we don't start to adjust a little bit here, you know, and try and uh be like we don't have to have that conversation if we stop now. Right. So let's let's uh try and nip it in the bud.

How To Connect And Get Help

SPEAKER_01 45:42

We're almost out of time. Um can you guys tell us where people can uh contact you if they want to learn more about you or come or just how to connect with you yeah for sure for me the easiest way is just add me on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

I think the same yeah you can find me I I would say the two places two best places to find me LinkedIn Cassie Gardner that's my name once again and then I I do an office hours every Friday it's open to new grads, job seekers, anybody who wants to come in and talk to an industry professional. And typically we are giving career advice like we'll do resume reviews, we'll do practice interviews we will teach you how to do an informational interview so you can get that contact. So you can find information for how to join those office hours on my website it's called yallimation.org Y A L O M A T I O N dot org that's so nice of you. Thank you I would love to have anybody and I'm always taking volunteers most of the volunteers have a biotech or automation background.

SPEAKER_04 46:46

So and just to like further plug this this is open to like anyone basically in any major at any level yes and I mean the like the types of folks who volunteer for this are really incredible really kind and super helpful. So there's like that base level of intimidation I think for a lot of people who are looking into history is just not there and Cassie's done such a great job developing it.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Thank you. It's a super safe space and I cannot take full credit like the people who volunteer are just friggin' awesome like Matt Dara, Michael Carney who's with Mesa at one of the local community colleges. Yeah we have Mike from Apple like we have so many people who are just so good and um I would encourage anybody to to join. The other place you can find Alice is you can find her through ISPE. So if you're looking for a mentor or volunteering opportunities too so don't don't forget about that one.

SPEAKER_04 47:34

Thanks Cassie yeah and I mean just this is all of like I am always happy to either find someone mentor or mentor them myself and it can be anything from hey do you want a resume interview do you want a practice interview all these things are obviously free. So just any way that I can help people I always try to that's really nice.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

You guys are very kind thank you so so are y'all for having us on here and this is super fun.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Absolutely right thank you so much for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah thank you thank you so much for having us and for taking the time thank you for listening to Automation Ladies if you like our content and you want to stay in touch please connect with us on LinkedIn follow the show page subscribe to our YouTube channel and you can send us a message or a copy on our website automationladies.io we look forward to getting to know you our producer is Veronica Astonosa and our music is proposed at Daniel