Why Career Paths Aren’t Linear: Lessons from Engineering, Writing, and Everything In Between with Rachael Pisini

Welcome From The Conference Road

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Automation Ladies, the only podcast we know of where girls talk about industrial automation. Welcome to another episode of Automation Ladies. I am your host, Nikki Gonzalez. It's just me today, director of business development at WineTech USA or WinTech. I think at this point most people know who I am, but I should introduce myself anyway. I am in a hotel room in the lovely Amelia Island, Florida, right now, coming off of the heels of the PMMI Executive Leadership Conference. It's uh an organization that we just I just joined. Um, this was my first meeting. It was it was pretty darn cool. And as I was just telling our guest today, um I just got a chance to talk to Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs, and I'm still pretty stoked about that. So um, but yeah, very timely. I actually thought about during that talk, during the talk about the labor shortage and the lack of people in skilled trades. Um, one of the things that Mike really talks about a lot is work ethic and your ability to be happy and grateful and have a live a fulfilling life of purpose with work, and that we've kind of undervalued hard work, physical work, labor, like it's a bad thing. Um, and one of the questions I asked at the end is I said, do you think that the shift from work smart, not hard, this whole idea that, like, oh, the more, the smarter we get, the more educated we get, the less hard, physically hard we have to work. I feel like that's actually kind of been a negative thing for us as a society for our mental health and our physical health. Cause I think about it, like when I'm out doing gardening or whatever, like physical labor, I feel like my mind gets a rest and I feel good and like I get some exercise. So, anyway, lots of gears turning. Today's guest is somebody I've been wanting to talk to on the podcast for a while. We had a pre-conversation and hit it off so well. And so, welcome, welcome, Rachel Piscini, um, editor-in-chief of Design World magazine. Although she is here to talk about not design world, not technology stuff, but we had a really amazing conversation um about some of these more kind of personal factors that really do affect work. So, yes, welcome, Rachel. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Good. Thanks so much for having me. It's super awesome uh to be here with you today. I know we had a lovely conversation. We were joking, like we should have just recorded that, but it was really heartfelt, maybe a little too personal. But it's real stuff. Like it's just nice to be able to connect with people in you know the industry we both work in and have real honest conversations about life stuff because it gets easy to forget that it's not just the technology, it's people coming to work every day with problems, with feelings, you know, just being tired, and not to mention all the stresses and anxieties of everything that's going on in the world today, especially and having no control over so much of it. So it's just nice to be able to sit down and talk about things that are real and actionable and things that we can do in our day-to-day life to just live, love, learn, grow, help other people to do the same.

Work Ethic Meets AI Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah, it's it's uh he kind of ended that's on this note too. He took my question and and pivoted it a little bit to talk about how this AI, you know, everybody's just talking about this AI, right? And it can make us a lot more efficient and potentially a lot more effective. But like, what do we do with that? Right. So, as I know for me, the more AI I use, the more output I'm getting, but also I'm piling myself with more projects. And it's not necessarily reducing my stress. I mean, people are stressed out about it replacing them, they don't know what is gonna happen with it, none of us know. And like, so yeah, there's like existential kind of stuff going on in the outside world, and then here we are like, oh, we still gotta sell more packaging machines, though, or we gotta build, you know, like the world keeps turning and stuff is keep keeps being made, and lots of things stay the same, and then other things are changing so rapidly. Yeah. Um that yeah, it's become very hard for me anyway to to kind of separate my. I mean, the thing is just personal life takes a huge like it affects people, right? Like in a lot of ways. Right now, I'm in under contract to sell my house. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that instructions and all kinds of you know, surprises came up yesterday. I need a new septic system, right? So this is like stressing me out while I'm in the middle of a conference, while I'm also getting calls from my kids' school about some expired affidavit. And if I don't get it to them in a week, my kids will be out of school. Oh my god. And like, yeah, and here I am um networking with my customers and executives and talking about packaging machinery and HMIs.

Life Stress Behind A Professional Face

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Um like like it's nothing else happens in the world, you know. But yeah, you gotta show up with your smiling face and you know, make it all work and still be professional and still bring it, you know, in every moment. And yeah, it's really hard. And it it I remember, you know, for think about how all the things that I, you know, come to the table with. And every time I look at somebody and look in their eyes and have a conversation, it's like, what's on your plate? You know, like hopefully, you know, this one thing I've learned is just always assuming everybody's coming with a lot of stuff in the back of their mind. People have problems, families, challenges to solve. And, you know, if we could just be be good, be decent to each other in you know, in in our work lives, I think that takes a huge burden off of everything else.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Well, I'm gonna kind of rewind and I guess get to our normal first question, um, which is can you tell us your story? How did you get to be uh an editor in the technology space talking about our industry?

Rachel’s Path From Engineering To Media

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Thanks. Yeah, it's kind of a uh meandering story. It when I was six years old, it was always my dream to write for magazines. I was reading teen magazine, though, and I loved health and fitness. I love the fitness section there. And I was just obsessed with it. I don't know why, but that was always one of my goals. But I didn't go to school for journalism. I actually went to school to become an engineer. I have a bachelor's and master's degree in engineering uh because I wanted to save the world. You know, I either wanted to be an astronaut and go into outer space, or I wanted to solve all the big problems in the world and make everybody's lives just happy and wonderful and peaceful. Um, so I and honestly, for anyone, you know, wondering how you make that kind of jump, you know, in my um uh AP chemistry class, I remember a woman from NASA came to speak to our class. So it's always important, you know, if you work for an organization, if you're an engineer, if you're a technical person, go back to your schools, maybe. And you know, you never know who you're gonna inspire because I was one of those people who didn't really know what to do, where to apply for college, what what I was supposed to do. I just knew NASA was cool and it was space, and I wanted to study that maybe. That was like one of the many things I could have done. And she said that she studied uh uh mechanical engineering in college. So I said, Oh, okay, I guess, I guess that's what I'm gonna do, because then I'm gonna work for NASA and I'm gonna fulfill all these dreams that I have. Um, and I still meandered through that course, you know. I was able to kind of find different pathways. I didn't work for NASA, you know, I didn't become an aerospace engineer or anything, but um I did find a path and um in uh more environmental um and started a job though in technical writing, you know, right out of college. I actually didn't become an engineer technically, uh, because writing was always a passion of mine. And I got a bit burnt out, I would say, um, by being so focused for so long and so goal-oriented that I just kind of wanted to rebel against myself even a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

You know, I know you can relate to that. I can I can relate to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, you rebel against yourself. I'm like, man, I've done everything right. I, you know, I followed the steps, I got good grades, I did it all. And now I just kind of wanted to do something more creative with my time or just something different. Um, but that was an interesting twist because it led me down this whole writing career that once again, just like a slew of different jobs and just kind of going for, you know, what seemed meaningful and um, you know, just kind of built this interesting sort of eclectic kind of life. Um, but then it led me to B2B journalism, which I absolutely love. So I'm kind of right back to that six-year-old, you know, who wanted to write for magazines. So it's kind of interesting how no matter how much I kind of wandered and experimented around, I'm back to that same childhood dream, which was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, I think some themes kind of tend to pull you, pull you back in, or you think you you walk away or you walk a different path. But if it like is meant to, I don't know, meant to be or whatever, but certain things just kind of like come back into your into your way, into your life. Um, similarly for me, I left the industry for a while and then I just I like worked in startups and software, and then I ended up doing startups and software for this industry. And then now I'm back to you know the hardware side because I realize like there's something that pulls me to the technology and the people that make real life everyday stuff. For sure. Um and I like you like solving problems and I like helping people, and I feel like this is such a tangible, practical. Like every time I solve an application challenge, like that to me is such a dopamine hit. I guess now I know the term for this, like my brain craves that reward of helping someone solve a problem.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yes. Yeah, not just a personality trait, but actual chemical response. Yeah. No, but true, yeah. And I I share, we've talked about this before. I share a similar philosophy where I, you know, we're put on this earth to be of good use to each other. And, you know, it's not that like in for either one of us, it's not like we left the industry or we we we did something wrong. We were just trying to find the way to be most impactful, you know, and I feel like that's where I'm at, where I'm very service-oriented and I want to help people. And why I mean, I feel like I help and impact and influence some of the most important people in the world. You know, these are engineers who they build aircraft components so that we can fly safely around the world, right? And and stay connected. And it's just it's really a privilege, and it means so much to me to be able to connect and interact with people who are doing some really fantastic things, even though you know I'm not the one doing those fantastic things, but I'm able to help showcase what people are doing and working on and kind of help kind of chart, chart out like what's going on in the world and history that to show how we're evolving as humans, how technology is evolving, what it all means, you know, and really and help maybe inspire, you know, a lot of the younger folks like I was in high school, you know, to kind of to charge that path for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, I was about to say, like, what would you? I know you didn't when you were, you had that NASA example, right? And something that you were very goal-oriented. You went through mechanical engineering, which is fairly rigorous, right? When you're in school, I know all my uh friends were engineers and I was not. I was going to the business school. I was like, yep, that's I'm not doing that. Oh, yeah. Um but you found this amazing kind of path career that you clearly like is fulfilling because it's so interesting. What would you tell your younger self? Is there anything that you feel like you would tell her to make her feel better or just know? Like, yeah, what would you tell her?

Patience, Experimentation, And Self-Trust

SPEAKER_01 11:32

It's funny. I think I even my I texted this to my mother not too long ago that I would I would tell my younger self just to to wait, be patient, to keep going. Yeah, right. Because I was I was impatient. I'm like, I want to get there. I don't know where I'm going, but I want to get there. I want to feel like I got there. And it just never felt that way. Um, and you know, there's a lot of other factors, just outside life stuff, not even career, um, you know, but just general things that you have to think about and you know to create a more holistic life. And there's insecurities and fears and self-doubts and crossroads, you know, it's like which direction do I go? Is this really the right one? You know, especially with an engineering kind of mindset, you want the correct answer, right? It's a life that doesn't exist. So, you know, being able to be more creative and more easygoing and you know, finding different ways of thinking about the day-to-day and goals and and really kind of centering yourself. I think, you know, just to always make sure, especially young people, you know, it's okay to experiment, sow your wild oats a little bit, you know, if you don't have a goal. I've known a lot of people who had um pretty rigid goals and I admired them because I was not um I didn't have that clear direction. I I was very disciplined and focused, but I didn't have like the clear direction of where I was going. And these other people did. Um, but they're not even in that field anymore. You know, they got burnt out. They did all this experience and expertise, and they said, see uh, I'm gonna go do something awesome, you know, with my life or something different. So it's like everybody seems, you know, people that I know kind of always we all tend to get that way. Um, so just you know, be patient, believe in yourself, and and just keep going, you know, and don't worry about right or wrong. Just keep going in that direction.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I just kind of knew like you just have to keep going. Um, and and as long as you're learning something, you're becoming more valuable. And then I realized by doing a lot of things that I didn't know if I wanted to do or not do, I started to learn more about myself. Yes, absolutely. Where I bring value, how I can be useful, where I shouldn't waste my time trying to be good at something that I'm ultimately never gonna be good at, or I really don't enjoy trying to become good at. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Agreed. Yeah. Even I I mean, if you're good at math and science in high school, you do tend to get pushed into, you know, STEM-related fields, which is fine. I'm very grateful. I do not regret my education, I'm very grateful for it. But I always wonder like, what if I went an artist route? You know, what if I focused on my creative writing? You know, where would I be? But I don't think it was the wrong choice for me at all. Um, but certainly just yeah, that keep going. Um, there's something else you said, but of course, as expected in our conversations, there's like 5,000 different things and I forget them all.

Building Careers By Mixing Skills

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I need to write this down. Um my, yeah, sort of my thought on this is I don't think that there is like a wrong choice when it comes to this kind of stuff. Um, it just the application of what you learned is you're gonna apply it differently than you thought. And I I think that we are now in this era where like we have the the fidelity of information and experience and these tools and stuff now to where we can envision more personal paths for people and maybe jobs that are a little bit more tailored to like who you are, your strengths, and things like that. Whereas in the past, when all we had was very like broadcast ways of getting information out, you know, we can't tell people the nuance of 20 different careers in a, you know, television program that sends out to everyone or or uh you know a school counselor. And then the nuance in a job like, oh, be an engineer, but not a practicing engineer, but uh, you know, somebody that does engineering in a different like that's it's either marketing or engineering. Like, yeah, but there's a marketing engineer, right? And sales engineer engineering to make sure that the marketing material is technically coherent and it's correct, and like there's such cool combinations of skills. Yes. And so writing, technical writing, and you can do that with or without an a degree. My friend Megan Zimba, who runs a Mavens of Manufacturing, I don't know if you've heard of that. Oh, yes. Yeah, so she's a technical writer with an English degree, but she was just always very interested in in hearing subject matter experts talk about what they do and then kind of distilling that story. And as she did that over and over and over in very specialized industries, she's a smart girl, she lady. She learned a lot about those things. And so she can now write and think and about these things with like a technical ability that you don't have from an engineering degree, but smart people absorb a lot through through work experience and osmosis and you know, connecting thoughts and things like that. So my daughter told me once, and I don't think this is currently her goal, but um, that she wanted to be a YouTuber when she grew up.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

And my son says the same. Yeah, and a YouTuber.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

This is being shared a lot, like it's one of the top choices that kids want, like in terms of and it's like, okay, well, I said that's great. If you want to do YouTube, learn something really cool and then share about it on YouTube. Yes. You know what? If your YouTube channel sucks and nobody watches it, at least you're learning a valuable skill.

unknown 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

And then also, like, what is a YouTuber that has no skill? What are you talking about if you're not, you know, focusing on something, teaching something? Um, and I'm sure, you know, like I don't know, I guess somebody like a Mr. Beast, he gives lots of money away to people, and that's really interesting. And he seems like a really entertaining and nice guy. Um, but yeah, not everybody in that business is gonna be able to give away millions of dollars and cars and and whatever. So my thought was like, you you can absolutely be whatever you want and just try to make sure that you have kind of like a hard skill that goes along with that.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Absolutely. Something that's transferable, that's not completely reliant on being a YouTube celebrity kind of thing. But even to your point, you know, you made me think of two things where um one, that your your friend who didn't have an engineering degree, had a writing degree, but is doing a lot of technical stuff, you know, you don't have to have a specific degree to be intelligent or capable, right? And I and I maybe you get to a certain place in life where you kind of realize that. But hopefully young, you know, I think that's another thing when you would maybe tell your younger self is that don't worry so much about the degree. I I told a couple um family members who were trying to figure out what they wanted to major in in college. And I think I told them, like, if you can handle kind of the hard disciplines or the hard sciences, just do it because then you can do almost anything you want, right? Which is kind of why I feel comfortable meandering a little bit because I know I have this rock solid, you know, education and not just a degree, a piece of paper, but the experience and the knowledge that goes with that and all the projects I worked on. And I feel confident that I can pivot, you know, I've proven that I can think and solve problems, but you don't need a degree for that either. Um the the other interesting thing though is because I do cover workforce development a lot and the engineering gaps, which you've talked about um like with with Mike Rowe, you know, talking about workforce and um, you know, and and I I don't try to promote necessarily STEM for the sake of people then becoming engineers for their job. I just think we should have a more intelligent society. Like there's nothing wrong with that, right? So yeah, be become, you know, study engineering, study math and science, do all the hard things. And then if you want to be a YouTuber, you're gonna be a really good YouTuber with all these skills, and you're probably gonna inspire a lot of people. You're probably gonna teach kids and adults how to do things, you know, very well. You know, there's it doesn't your degree, what you study and what you do for work aren't always, you know, mutually exclusive. You can be very useful with whatever combinations of skills. Like you said, there's engineers who are marketers, engineers who are salespeople, you know, there's engineers who are journalists, you know, and you kind of need them all. And I think to figure out where that intersection in your skills are and be able to find a pathway to do that is really what makes a meaningful and useful, impactful career.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

I know, so Courtney, our co-host, she's a uh she's got a master's in robotics now, but she's an electrical engineer who started out in embedded electronics design, I think. And she kind of, you know, I think she had a path and she thought she was gonna and she achieved it. And then she didn't really enjoy that job. And she didn't have this like, oh, I I feel fulfilled, right, with what I did. And she ended up going back to school and learning robotics. And she worked in um for a set of life circumstances, ended up, you know, needing to get maybe a less prestigious position. She ended up working for an equipment OEM um that needed her skill set. And she's now like so fulfilled, she's so into what she does. And like you can tell kind of the infectious enthusiasm of people that have kind of found, I wouldn't say found their calling, but just something that, you know, they can feel a little bit passionate about versus and and I think when you are so like specifically goal-oriented on one thing and everything rides on it, then if if it doesn't feel as good as you thought it would when you get there, what do you do? Yeah. And I guess I've never had that problem. I've never had a singular goal that I could stick with. And I now know enough about myself to know that it is ADHD and my personality type. Um, so I'm now okay with that. But I used to feel a sense of inadequacy that I didn't have a plan like everybody else, or I wasn't, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, I just knew I had to keep going. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to college and I don't really know what I want to be. So I'm gonna study something that doesn't put me in a box, that doesn't put me in too tight of a box. Like if I had studied accounting, I would hate my life. But I did a little bit of accounting and I've done a little bit of accounting, and as a business owner, I have to do a little bit of accounting, right? So it's a great skill to kind of know. But I also I worked one summer as an intern in the accounting department, and I was like, I cannot absolutely not do this all day. Like it it would be the worst. Uh so what one of the things that we kind of try to emphasize on this show is A like, I'm sorry to everyone out there that isn't in this industry if you didn't know that it was an option. Because most people don't, none of us did. It kind of took like some random coincidence or somebody to inspire you to get here. But this is really a place where I have found like a huge concentration of people that are really into what they do. Um and I don't know if that's a because they are only here because they kind of found it and stuck with something different rather than it's not a mainstream profession that people tell you that you want to do, and then you aspire to it, and then when you get there, it's not what you thought. Um maybe different dynamics at play when you have a career that's less publicized, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Sure.

Feelings, Ego, And Better Decisions

SPEAKER_00 22:46

At what point did you become so thoughtful and passionate about kind of personal development and how that relates to work and being yourself and all that kind of stuff? I feel like that's something that I maybe started to get more into in the last like 10 years, maybe just because I got older. And I'm like, you keep experiencing stuff and you're like, oh, I was completely wrong. And like this work. But I know I know several people still, um, and I'll say that it's a quote that Ali and I often kind of bring up, but an engineer on a call with her one time was adamantly saying, This is engineering, this is not about feelings. And as he was having like a tempered, an emotional tantrum. Right, right, right. He's like reiterating that this is engineering and that is an entirely separate world from feelings. And I think we both just kind of had this like, this is this is hilarious. This is uh seems so out of left field to be able to say something like that definitively. Um, yeah, at what point were you like, hey, this is or was there ever a moment or was it just super gradual?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

I don't know if there was a defining moment, but I think naturally I I just always want to improve. And I've I'm not a very uh competitive person when it comes to like battling other people. Like I played sports and everything, and and I always wanted to win. I always wanted to be, I always wanted to win at stuff, right? But not to beat other people. I I didn't want to win so that my name could be on a plaque or something, you know, or in a hall of fame. I just wanted to prove to myself that I could do this. You know, I think my my self-worth relied on it, like knowing that I am capable and that I, you know, no matter what's thrown at me, I can figure it out, even if it's messy and looks awful on the outside, and I'm the laughing stock of everybody. If I can, if I can do this, whatever's in front of me, that would make me feel great and I would feel accomplished, regardless of job or or anything else, and regardless of other people's opinions too, regardless of external. And I think that the um gosh, you said so many hilarious things about the engineering and feelings, because I used to I used to really compartmentalize feelings. I always thought feelings were a nuisance, right? And yeah, because they interfere with relationships, with focus, with figuring out your life path or whatnot. Feelings are complicated, but it is funny because a lot of times um when people who are heated, you know, or angry, uh that that's a feeling, you know, and and it's clearly coming from someone who is not in control or or isn't managing their feelings very well. But I think feelings are often associated with maybe sadness, you know, that kind of that kind of stuff. I think we forget that anger is a feeling and rage is certainly a feeling. Um, but fear and and all of those, you know, they they certainly stem from a place of fear and a place of maybe needing control, which I definitely my husband and I talk about this a lot, how we we are susceptible to just wanting control, you know, because it makes us feel safe. Um, not for power. We don't want power, we don't to be able to control other people. Um, but we just need to feel a sense of self-control. And, you know, so there's no there's no moment that really led me to want to improve that, but just going through life, like you said, you kind of realize, oh, I have a choice here, and I'm I'm witnessing a lot of people not managing their feelings, not managing themselves, just getting all angry, blaming everybody else. I don't want to be like that, you know, and and watching how egos interact and interfere and interfere with progress and interfere with things that matter, and it's it just my my relationship with feelings and wanting to compartmentalize them in a way was mostly just because I'm like, this is stupid. Why are we so like clearly we're wrapped up in feelings, we're wrapped up in our egos, and we're not making sound decisions that matter and help people. So that whole kind of journey of figuring out for myself, you know, how to how to manage myself, which is always a work in progress. I'm not perfect at it. I'm not preachy, like I'll say things to inspire, but mostly to remind myself, right? So I can hear it, hear myself talk and say these things out loud. Um, but I mean it's just a lifelong battle, you know, to when not a battle, I don't even want to use that word. It's a it's a lifelong journey and a lifelong, you know, practice of self-management. And, you know, we we we get off the horse sometimes, we get kicked down, and you you just two steps forward, two steps back, you know, you just you you pick up where you left off and you try to double back as much as you can. But um, I don't even know if I'm I'm rambling now. This is what happened. I love talking to you because we just go so circular.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Well, I I'm gonna I'm gonna um then ask you a question. Uh mechanical engineering college, how many there are a lot of girls in your program, or were you like, did you have any feelings about that?

Women In Engineering Culture Shifts

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Oh, yeah. So I went to an all-girls high school, first of all, okay. The motto was um dedicated to excellence, right? Like every it was very clear of that. You had very, very high standards to meet in everything that you did. And so, and and we wouldn't dress up for school, right? And we would always talk and raise our hands, like everybody by the end, you know, it was a group of confident young women. You go into college then, and there's I'm I'm like, I think I was talking to a friend the other day, a neighbor the other day who went to the same school. We like showed up to college with our hair all messy, and you know, I'm raising my hand, answering the questions wrong, but I'm just still, you know, confident, not caring, and like everybody else is all pretty and like done up, like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing here. You know, this is not, we're not in Kansas anymore. Um, so it was different culturally, just being in those environments. Um, and not, and we did, I did have a lot of support, but not necessarily in my individual classes. So kind of navigating that was different. But I ended up switching, um, so I did start off with mechanical engineering. I ended up switching to industrial and systems engineering just because that was a little bit more um, I think that was more aligned with just kind of the way that I thought, you know, just my natural thought process. But there were a lot more uh women there. It was almost 50-50, which was interesting. And uh so there was a lot, uh, it was a very different dynamic um in that field as opposed to the mechanical engineering.

Neurodiversity As A Team Advantage

SPEAKER_00 29:34

I wonder sometimes about like neurodivergence, and we're learning constantly more about our brains, right? And and engineering, I think, has the stats are somewhere like it it attracts a higher percentage of people on the spectrum. Um and with other like neurodivergent differences because of certain different ways of thinking. So I am thinking of um somebody that I know in the industry that's autistic, and he said the way that my mind can visualize factories is different from other people, but it's a really valuable skill in a certain type of job. Um so I think our world and a lot of the innovation too, like a lot of the inventions are come from people whose brains think outside the norm and are somehow compelled to want to solve new problems rather than just find the the most you know best solution that already exists. Um but we have this concentration, but there's there's must be different kinds then, because if you think about somebody that does a lot of systems thinking, right, your industrial systems engineering versus someone that can singularly focus on like just electrical schematics or something. And I wonder sometimes is it a personality thing or an interest thing, or maybe like certain types of brains, the way they think, are like much more suited to needing to see the whole system and the inputs and outputs, and other people are maybe overwhelmed by the immense complexity of it all, right? I I don't know. Um, I have this is not exactly a question, but any thoughts on that, Rachel?

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Oh, you know, we we could have thoughts all day long, Nikki. Especially I think you and I are we have expansive thinking for sure. I always love like Einstein's thought experiments. That excites me more than you know, focusing on one component every single day of my life. I want to have thought experiments every day. Even my son, he's so sweet. He he says he's dreaming, he's he loves daydreaming, and I let it go. I'll be in the car. Anyone who goes and I'll start talking to him, it goes, nope, um, I'm I'm dreaming. Please give me some some time. I'm like, you have your dreams, you know. And because I I'm a big proponent of just thinking, you know, um, having different different ways of thinking and different uh you know types of thinking um is something I definitely value. And I don't think everybody probably feels the same way, or there's people who maybe um thinking is an interesting, fun exercise. Uh, and for others, it's well, why would I why would I think about all sorts of things if I'm not working on something that it's going to directly apply to? Yeah. So it could be our wiring personality. Um, there's also, I, you know, we we had our previous conversation about just the way our brains work, right? And how uh as you get older too and you have more experience, maybe you go through life, you learn a lot of more self-acceptance. Maybe you still don't understand exactly what's going on up there, but you have more acceptance of it and you get to know yourself better and you know maybe your strengths and and where you shouldn't work, you know, or you shouldn't, what you shouldn't get involved in because it just doesn't make any sense. Um, but even you know, my husband, he can memorize facts like nobody's business. He could be on, you know, the the Jeopardies, and I would fail miserably. But you know, you put us down with like a puzzle. I I can do it like it is split, you know, and he's struggling. So it's okay, you know, again, another Einstein quote, because he's one of my faves is you know, you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. He's gonna, you know, grow up his whole life thinking he's dumb, but he's not dumb, he's a fish, you know. He wasn't supposed to climb a tree. So it's you know, figuring out how your brain works and being fine with that or challenging yourself if you want it to be different. That's also true too, you know, it's a fine pathway. But yeah, and being open to the way other people work and getting multiple types of brains in the same room is really important. You need people who can do facts and know information off the top of their head, you need people with more systems thinking who can connect the dots that maybe don't make sense to anybody else and who can put puzzles together, you need people with feelings who can bring empathy to the table, you know, and remember that we're all human and we design things for humans at the end of the day. Um, you need all sorts of different perspectives and brain power and different ways of thinking. Yeah. So those are my thoughts on that, Nikki.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

So you're you're in a leadership position now. I know leadership is an important topic to you. Um, what's what do you think is important when it comes to being a good leader and putting together these teams, like you just kind of mentioned? Because there's challenges that come along with managing all kinds of different people as well.

Leadership As Service And Execution

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah. Well, I'll say I feel very humble in that you know, leadership is never what you think it is. And I read, I well, I don't want to promote other people's books, but I I have books and books and books, and I've I've read them for decades now about how to be a good leader, you know, how to manage people, how to be a good leader, and what's the the difference between the two. But when you actually get into it, there's so many things that are just not in these books, you know, that you have to confront. Um, I think it's about just always focusing on self-improvement first and foremost, making sure, you know, you you are continuing to be better than you were yesterday so that you could be a good example and then continuously have that service mindset. Um there's people in leadership positions, um, you know, in very, very, very high up global leadership positions that probably aren't, you know, they don't necessarily do a good job, but they're in there anyway. And then there's people who probably should be in leadership positions who never will be, right? Because they maybe they're afraid or they don't want the responsibility or they're shy and they just don't want to be in front of people like that. Um, so it's kind of like it, but you can still be a leader in your daily life. And and I think it's most important to be a leader of your own life first, you know, to take ownership of your life and just chart a path of continuous improvement for yourself and and then the rest is kind of a job, you know. If if you're supposed to manage a team, then you have to learn that skill of, you know, how to manage people, how to manage tasks. And I one uh struggle I have that I communicate to my colleagues is that I feel like when I'm a when I'm focusing on being a good leader, I end up being a worse teammate, right? Or a worse worker when I'm focused on, okay, I gotta still be a good worker, but then like the leadership stuff kind of falls by the wayside. So I'm in that phase where I'm trying to balance being both, you know, so I can we I can be a contributor to the team as well as hopefully being a source of inspiration. Or the the way I like the way I see it for myself is, you know, I I work with amazingly intelligent, wonderful people. I don't, I don't really need to lead anybody. It's more about getting everybody together, um being that person who instead of, hey, let's uh we have all these ideas, okay, let's set a mean, let's get it on the calendar, let's talk about it and let's execute it. I'm finding that that's kind of my strength and that's where I like to be. I don't want to tell people what to do, you know, even in in their day-to-day jobs. I want to get everybody together and have the conversation so that we can create a path together, you know, create the direction together and and really go um go as a team. That's kind of where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

But there's also I know quite a few people that kind of like have this hybrid role, I guess myself included, where you're an individual contributor and a leader at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

And and and this is I realized like I should not say stuff like this until I because like I was like, I don't see the point. Or I I don't know. I feel like in some cases you work with people that they're not they haven't done the work for so long, or maybe they've never done the work, all they've done is direct other people to do the work. Um, and then they come in and they say, Okay, now I'm gonna need to hire this many people to get this work done. And I'm like, why? You could just, I would just do that. Yeah. And so part of me is like, all I see is the value of like getting the work done. Um and what I haven't, because I haven't stepped into that place where like I'm not get doing any of the work, I'm only telling people what to do or asking them or leading them or or whatever. Um, so I think it's something that I will eventually like realize how stupid of me it was to think that. Um but I'm in this place too, where like I've I've avoided managing people directly for a really long time because I I don't feel like I know better than anybody. And I feel like it's I don't know, maybe imposter syndrome kind of thing. Like I'm not like how could I possibly manage or or lead somebody, right? When I'm still not I've got work to do. Like I I need leadership and direction and managing. And um and then you realize it's like, yeah, okay, it is actually kind of an exercise in like learning to manage yourself. And then it is a skill though. It's not necessarily, I think, and I kind of thought like, oh, I'm not good at this. And it's like, yeah, I'm not good at it yet because I haven't made the effort to learn how to be good at it. And it probably isn't just against my personality. It's just a it's a scary thing for me, I guess. There's something you're there, and so I have avoided taking on that challenge. Um, although I do tend to try to take on difficult things. Um, but I I keep saying like a little bit later in my career. I got I got right.

Fear, Imposter Syndrome, And Growth

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Well, and I'm that friend, Nikki, that if you tell me you're afraid of something, I'm gonna I'm gonna nudge you. I'm gonna be like, go do it. Yeah, like I believe in leaning into our fears within reason. You know, fear is a friend, and I think it shows us a pathway of possibility. And it it's again back to the feelings. You know, it's always about these feelings that prevent us from maybe taking that first step forward. But I think you're doing a phenomenal job, and I think you're a wonderful leader. I mean, you have this podcast, you know, and that that's a that's a form of leadership where it doesn't matter matter if you're managing people, if you're doing something to help others, you know, and educate others, you're corralling people, you're talking about difficult conversations, you're talking about real stuff and sharing it out in the world, you're being very brave, probably getting way outside your comfort zone, you know. But hopefully it feels better. Maybe it doesn't ever go away. That fear never goes away, but it becomes normal, right? Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think you are an absolute leader, and um, there's no imposter about you, Nikki.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Thank you. Thank you. But yeah, we I think we are oftentimes our own kind of biggest critics. And it's probably a good thing, right? Like I or maybe there are people out there that think they're awesome and they don't need any help and they don't need to learn anything. And yes, um, I don't identify with that. I don't know what that's like. Uh but I've also realized I've I've stopped thinking there like everything is a distribution in life. Like if you look at nature, if you look at like any kind of statistical distribution, typically the 80-20 rule applies, or sometimes even more extreme. So if you think about life on like this bell curve, right, you've got kind of most people in the middle, and then you've got outliers on both sides. And every system of any kind is always gonna have that, right? If you think whether you think about technical, personal, nature, whatever. Um and so I do have to remind myself sometimes like there are a lot of people that I do not cannot relate to in certain ways because they are gonna be different and we're gonna be on a different spectrum. Um, but it's such a pleasure to kind of also know that. And now I'm like, I can learn when I meet these people. Like there's so much that I I can't learn from myself. Um, and it really gives me a lot of pleasure in meeting other people, even people that are extremely different from me or that I disagree with a lot, because now that I have this kind of outlook that I'm really interested in them and studying them and figuring out where on this any you know spectrum they might be. Um, and I don't mean that in the clinical sense, but just kind of like on this like spectrum of life. Um, I think your mindset plays a huge role in how how you work and and how happy you can be. Um, so to bring it back to Mike Rowe from earlier, he also says one of his pledge, I'm gonna link to this because it's super cool and just I feel like it's kind of relevant to our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

But he so he has a scholarship fund and people have to sign this pledge. And these are like kind of personal statements that say, like, I am gonna be, I'm grateful and I choose to um, I'm not gonna read them through, but um part of it, he was like, Well, yeah, if you can't do that, then you're not gonna be happy, like no matter what you do.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And I thought for the longest time that you had to achieve something specific to be happy.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

That is not uncommon to, yeah. We all do.

Gratitude As A Practical Mindset

SPEAKER_00 42:16

You never get there, or you do get there and you're like, wait, why am I now not happy? And I realize the happiness is totally independent of your circumstances, it has to be. Yeah, because there are so many things out of outside of our control.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, and even you said the words like, what can I do? You know, so that's you think about it's all these things outside of our control. I don't need to accomplish any one specific thing to be happy. It's my attitude, you know. And if we can approach things with a sense of gratitude and curiosity, then we can do anything. Well, that's probably that's probably why I've meandered so much, because it's the curiosity thing, right? So don't take my advice, maybe, because that can lead you down so many rabbit holes. But but really, I mean, you you're you're leaving proof of it too, where you know, that the path of like self-acceptance, self-love, and then just approaching things with a a good mindset and good attitude where you're really thinking about how can I be useful to other people. You can't go wrong, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Um, yeah, so I've been through, I've been so at this executive leadership conference this week. And then last week I was in Nashville at the uh Association for High Tech Distribution, their spring meeting. And they also have a lot of like really great speakers. So part of I am so lucky. I'm so lucky to be part of this, these industry associations that pay for really smart people to come talk about what they've learned in person, like up on stage. It's a it's a huge I'm so grateful for that. And and so many of the things are things that I already think about, but then like I connecting the dots between like you'll hear one speaker in the morning say something about teamwork or leadership. Um so I have like five or six different things from the last week that I'm like, I want to connect that dot and that dot. But that's that's very much how my brain works. Um are you part of any groups, associations, um, nonprofits, anything in the in the automation world that you would encourage our audience um to get involved with or listen to? Or and you're welcome to plug books. I don't I was actually interested now in what you're reading or what you've got around you there.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

I can share my list. I'll have to go to my library real quick. Um well um I'm I'm not really a part of organizations uh right now. I think you I should be. You know, I I look them up a lot and I'm like, oh yeah, I should do that.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Um You can't be in all the places. I wish I have so much FOMO about all the organizations I'm not in, but like it I can't be in them all.

Community, Volunteering, And Parenting

SPEAKER_01 44:37

But like I used to be very um, I just wanted to be in everything, uh, you know, and and not not know everybody to I like I don't need celebrity status, but I just wanted to be connected. I wanted to know, I wanted to learn, I wanted to be there where all the action is and and and just be part of it, you know, part of communities. Community is a big thing. Um, so in the automation world and the technology world, no, but outside of that, yeah. Like I do, I do a lot of volunteering. That's kind of my jam. Outside of uh personal growth and development, I spend a lot of time with my son. Being a mom is the best. It is I'm such a perfect, you know, I would love it so much. But I get to be a kid, you know. I don't have, I'm not the traditional, I guess, uh I don't know, I don't know what traditional is anymore, but you know, the stereotypical role, I am the child in our family.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Like I'm the Oh, I'm so jealous. My husband was the child, and I want so badly to be the child, and and I am totally the mom.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Like well, yeah. I mean, you you now have to well, you can be both, but and I I it's confusing though, I will say, when you um when you want to play, you know, but then you have to be authoritative. There's a there's a challenge there, and we're definitely uh seeing that challenge um very clearly. Um, but you know, I just hope it creates a a strong relationship with my son for the future too. I I often think about future relationships. How can my actions now, you know, maybe prolong this or or nurture a longer-term relationship?

SPEAKER_00 46:07

But um I I've been fascinated by and I feel like very lucky to live in a time where I can read up on all kinds of things we're learning about how our brain works and about our childhoods and and what different parenting styles sort of you know support or or not. And when I so when I had kids, I was like, I'm not gonna go on social media and try to like read what I'm supposed to be doing because yeah, I know I'm gonna get like just extreme anxiety over not doing it right. So I kind of took the path of like, I feel like people did this before books and social media based on instinct, and I'm gonna give that a shot.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

I think there was a time when we didn't have social media and people existed.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

There was no mom blogs telling you the 10 things you had to have in your diaper bag or whatever. Yeah, no. Um, I do remember so my mom um was a young mom. I was she was 19 uh when I was born, and she was like, I had no idea what I was doing. But I think to her credit, and she said, I just tried really hard. So I did try to read books, and she's like, I did my best as my 19-year-old self. I just made it a point to try to be a good mom. And I was like, Yeah, that is honestly the best I could have asked for. Um, and I think you don't necessarily technically get it all right, but I think the overarching theme, if you're putting in the effort, you will be successful in terms of hopefully having, you know, happy and healthy, fulfilled children that are good, you know, citizens of the world. Um but these relationships and like how our brains work and and how children experience things, it's like we know a lot more about that now.

unknown 47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Um I find it fascinating to try to think about like there's certain things that I know that most of my like friends and family or people that I know think this is the way to do it. And I'm like, no, I'm gonna do it this other way because it just feels right to me. And then then I, in some cases, knew the research ahead of time. In most cases, I found the research afterwards that I was like, oh, see, I wasn't totally out there like doing something crazy that is gonna make my children like um end up in my use of research study to justify anything.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

You just probably is.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

I just I'm I'm like looking for confirmation biases over the place.

unknown 48:17

I know.

Kids, Screens, And Critical Thinking

SPEAKER_01 48:19

No, but yeah, you're so right in the uh kind of going back to the YouTube thing, um, how both of our children, you know, they want to be YouTubers. It's just that was an I don't know. I guess you might want to be an actor or singer or writer, you know, when we were growing up, but YouTube wasn't a thing. So, you know, having that as an aspiration is so interesting, but also just there's research out there that shows how kids think differently than when we grew up, um, based on the exposure to various apps, technology, you know, it's maybe a case where technology, it's not it doesn't by default hurt people's way of thinking, but it's certainly a different way that we have to navigate. And there's actually a study too. Speaking of research, there's a study that kind of shows the negative effects now, you know, after we have a couple of decades of data collected, where you know, using technology in schools for especially young children isn't it might be convenient in many ways, but it's not doing the information and the knowledge sharing that we thought. It's actually it's it's creating problems with critical thinking. And and that's just across the board on average, not for individual kids, but it is interesting, and it will be interesting to see as our children grow up, you know, how their ability to solve problems and cope and deal with their feelings and the decisions they make. It will it'll be interesting to see how being a product of all of AI, you know, and all this technology that they have readily at their fingertips and they have never been without how that affects how they think about things and see the world.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

It is fascinating. I'm very interested in so Elon Musk, um, and I think some people at Tesla came up with their own concept of school like 10 years ago. Um, and uh is called Alpha School, and it's two hours of instruction per day with a personalized AI tutor. And there are no teachers, there are facilitators.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

And then the rest of the day is spent on other things like life skills projects, building things, cleaning the school, I like just all kinds of other things, kind of utilizing this knowledge, but not like sitting in a classroom.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And now they've done, they've benchmarked this because they have now had, you know, graduates go to college that started it in elementary school or whatever, and they have like 10 years of data. And their research shows that this personalized app-based kind of and so it's different though than the technology you're talking about in schools, which is everybody sits in a classroom and they have an iPad or whatever. Um, this is a, I guess, a more targeted, concentrated use of the technology, but it's only for two hours a day. And then the rest of it is doing face-to-face stuff, working together in groups. Um, but they're able to uh take somebody that is behind and bring them up to speed. You can do, and it's it's individual, right? Like not every child is going to perform the same using this, but because the instruction is personalized very much to where they are and where they need to be, they can go up a grade level in like three months. Oh and I'm very fascinated by this because I've thought for a long time like the way we do schooling is not catching up with the way like how fast things are changing. Yeah. And the things our kids are gonna need to know. Um so I would I like low-key really want to send my kids to this kind of school, but it costs like$50,000 a year. So it's still very much reserved for a few people.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Sure. Um that's interesting though, you're right, because it's you when you said our um it's our school system maybe isn't caught up with the way the world is now and you know, and how we use technology in classrooms, it's like we're retrofitting, yeah, you know, like a retrofit project. You're trying to shove something new into something old that came out wrong.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Like, how long are we gonna be able to do that versus we need to just kind of wholesale like rethink, redesign?

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean it's a rad that's a radical change, right? And even as a parent, I think, you know, going back to control and feelings and and being scared and and reading your mommy blogs and you know, what should I do? What kind of parent should I be? It's like what what's the right way to educate a kid? I don't know. But the you know, we've had people who've studied these things for so long, and that's worked for so long, but now we're kind of in this very maybe, maybe different era, or maybe it's a blip, maybe it's just like a couple years worth or 10 years worth of newness and then things go back to the way they were. I don't know, but there's never a right answer, I think. And for mothers and parents, you know, it's important to yeah, like you're saying, trust your gut and do what you think is right for your family and your kid. And our kids they'll they'll still grow up and and with the right leadership, you know, as a as a parent, you know, we our jobs are to to guide them, but not, you know, do it all for them. But they'll they'll figure it out and it'll be a brand new world when they get older too. So who knows?

Finding Your Spark In Automation

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, I could go on. I was gonna say also you met thinking about like sitting in a classroom, evolutionary biology also tells us that like we are when men and women are wired differently in certain ways. And so an all-girls school and all-boys' school, I I listened to a podcast last year of somebody that is is very passionate and adamant about this, that boys and girls should be educated differently because girls can sit in a class much longer and concentrate, and boys need to get more energy out. They have a different way that uh on average that they and and like every system, right? There's there's people on the edges of that. So there's gonna be people that doesn't apply to. But we've always had to do things for the median or the average, because it's the only way that we can actually serve, you know, a whole population, a whole society. Um and now we're in this place where like, oh, we can see so much more fidelity. How do we how do we deal with that in execution, right? Now that I know that this model of schooling is gonna work for maybe 80% of the kids here, and the rest of them need something different. Something but I would like to, so we are getting up on the hour and I don't want to ramble too long. Um, and I want our audience to hopefully get um inspired or something. Um, so I like to get up on my soapbox sometimes. But a big part of why we do this podcast, um, I want people to know that there are, if you're not loving what you do or where you're at, there you can find, like I feel like everyone should be able to find that spark that interests them. And then I that there's probably again, also then to make this more nuanced, there's people that probably maybe will never be passionate about their work and they're perfectly fine doing a job to then go home and have a life. Like, yeah, yeah, not everyone is as intensely into their work as I am, and they don't need to be. So if you're the kind of person that's perfectly okay with having a job that isn't your passion, um, then I total I I love that and I respect that. I just don't understand that. But I do know, you know, people, especially early on in your career, it can feel like you made a mistake, you didn't choose the right thing if you're feeling stressed or unsure of yourself or unfulfilled. Um, and the best I can say is keep going, keep learning, do network, like especially if you're feeling unfulfilled in your job, go talk to other people, meet people, whether that's in a trade association or volunteering or doing something. Because the more people, companies, positions, jobs, experiences you get exposed to, the more likely you are to find your thing or your place or to realize, you know, you'll mature enough to eventually realize where your real skill set lies and how that intersects with your passion. And we're in such a cool industry that has a freaking just so many options, right? You can be in marketing, sales, writing, content creation, um, which is a huge skill. Like I'm terrible at it. And um, which is why now we have Veronica um who is actually producing this content. I'm just, I'm good at talking. Uh, I like that part. Um But yeah, I feel like, and and we've seen this too. The show has been going for like four years now. And we've had some people kind of change what change up what they're doing um and written us that they were inspired by something they heard on the show to pursue um a jump into controls engineering or you know, something that they maybe otherwise wouldn't have taken on the challenge. Um and they've ended up in a place where they're really happy. Um, and I love that. So if that's you out there, um, just keep going, do the next thing and the next thing, and then come find people like me and Rachel that I think you know, kind of live for helping people, solving problems, feeling useful, giving back, right? So any last thoughts, Rachel? I want to I usually ask people like, what should people follow you for? Where should they reach you? Um, read design world. But um people where they should go if they were if they feel like, hey, Rachel's my kind of person. I I want to be like Rachel or I want to know her.

Where To Find Rachel And Wrap

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Oh well, I would love that, of course. I I welcome all sort of friends from everywhere. I I love people. Um, you could find me on LinkedIn, that's always a good spot. You know, I'm my profile's open. You can DM me anytime. Um, but yeah, definitely through design world, you know, if you follow the what we write about. And like I said, I do cover workforce quite a bit and um you know not just technology, but also uh trying to expand that more into the implications, like the societal and cultural implications, you know, and broadening that and and bringing in the people element to automation, you know, and to technology and reminding who we're designing for. Um, so if if that sounds like your jam, you know, you like uh, and if you're a new leader, you know, and you're or you're unsure of yourself, or you're trying to figure out what do I have to do, what kind of mindset do I need to have in order to excel in life or career or whatever, you know, I'm happy to have all those conversations. Hopefully it can be a resource for people, you know, no matter the age or the career path, doesn't even have to be engineering, you know, could be anything. Um, but yeah, happy to do that and and be of good use in that way.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

So well, you have you are definitely a role model to me and and an amazing. I feel very grateful to have met you and be able to have you on the show and to have you in our network. Um, thank you so much for your time. I look forward to hopefully I'll I'll be reading um a lot of your content going forward. And I know that um, and I oh, I'll say this. I'm not a writer professionally. I just I have a lot of ideas and I like to write them down. And I've like gotten kind of better at the writing and then interviewing and stuff. So um I've gotten I got my second article, byline article kind of approved today for publication in one of the industry magazines. So you may see me, I think I'm gonna do some more writing. Um it's not something that I thought like I went to school for, but it's just it's a it's a passion and a practice that I keep practicing. And who would have thought that somebody actually wants to publish what I have to say? And and so, like anybody out there that's just like, if you're passionate, just keep going. Yeah. The success will find you, I think. And especially you take personal responsibility for yourself, your happiness. You realize all you can control in this world is you. Try to tell that to my kids when they yell at each other and they're mad. I'm like, all you you can't control your brother, you can only control yourself. What are you gonna do about this situation? Absolutely. Uh thank you so much, Rachel. I hope you have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

I really enjoyed this. You're a phenomenal person, and I appreciate you doing this show, and you are an inspiration to so many people. So keep it up. I'm really, really grateful for you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Thank you for listening to Automation Ladies. If you like our content and you want to stay in touch, please connect with us on LinkedIn, follow the show page, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and you can send us a message or a copy on our website, automationladies.io. We look forward to getting to know you. Our producer is Veronica Espinoza, and our music is composed by Daniel K.